I think that Jesus would approve of the Koch Brothers. After all, they provide family sustaining wages to hundreds of thousands of employees and constantly and consistently show up in the top 10 of the world's biggest philanthropers list.

Obamacare seeks to copy England where they are 6 times more likely to die of prostate cancer and 25% of people with curable cancers die. So people will die with or without Obamacare. More importantly, if we follow the Democrats and refuse to deal with costs of those programs, someday, likely in less than 15 years, we will be in a position like Europe where we will be forced to slash them hurting even more than being responsible now like the Ryan Plan was trying to do last year. In the end the progressive policies will be far more harmful, so it would be more difficult to vote with Reid and Obama if you give a care about the future of this country.

If you are concerned about Badger care you should support Walker. By eliminating the corrupt collective bargaining system we were able to balance the budget while adding money to Badgercare. Being responsible has minimized the cuts to actual services that would have been needed had we not been responsible. Also has prevented losses of teachers or hurting the quality of education in areas with responsible leaders.

@ Jason
Well, Jason than I would be a strong advocate for the Obama adminsitrations to stop his programs of creating homeless , jobless and criminals .His welfare expansion certainly will increase all those numbers.

What part of FREE ID don't you understand? I was just at the DMV a week ago, my God they have signs everywhere telling you what to do for a free voter ID.
I guess you liked it when the homeless could vote in every ward they wanted?

glad I decided to check our a few more comments because you nailed it!@haha

J.B., I know people who have been out of work for more than a year--not freeloaders, victims of circumstances far beyond their control. Too much competition for jobs, aging, skills not fresh and no money for training--I also know people with strong resumes who have been passed over for jobs because of their skin color.

I wish this country could move away from the "freeloader" mindset. It's largely inaccurate and unjust.

I would also disagree with you about privatization being more cost-effective. Contracting from the outside cannot replace institutional history/knowledge and commitment. I have spent more time/expense getting contracted services up to and kept up to speed. Most of us don't have time for that anymore.

Concerning building a voter base with social welfare programs, of people I've known who use/have used government assistance to get buy, most believe these are services they pay for through taxes or are their right as American citizens. They do know the difference between "government" and "politics," and many are very aware of local politics especially, because they are the first ones targeted and impacted by cuts.Their votes are largely cast for candidates they believe will improve their lives and communities. In fact, these folks by and large are more knowledgeable about political issues than others of my acquaintance in higher income levels!

Jason:

Please clarify your claim that Ford was adamantly against the people that did actual labor. Didn't Henry Ford pay his workers twice the pay that the workers in the other car factories were making?

I won't dispute your Hitler/Nazi claims about him, but I do wonder what that has to do with how he compensated his workers...

@Jason -

Your claim that Ford was against "the people who did actual labor" is historically inaccurate and ludicrous at best. Reading too much revisionist history over on the Daily Kos I see.

Did you know that James Riddle Hoffa, one of the greatest labor leaders in American history, was a staunch conservative and adamantly against public sector unionization? I bet they don't talk about that over on the Daily Kos, do they?

man your are delusional. Let's see jesus main message was compassion, peace, healing, feeding, you know love. Right wingers hate nutritional assistance(feeding those in need), they hate medical reforms or much worse, healing for free in his tradition. Right wingers are rabidly pro war, intollerant and hate some of god's childrean who he made to have a sexual prefrence different then thiers... could go on and on...
Wow to the hypocrites! For it would be better had they never been born!!!

lol @ roger
Making more and more people dependant on crumbs is your solution. LOL You simply are not solution driven . Resources are not infinite . If you never consider that you are a failure to common sense! At least I am for jobs. You lefties are for programs without a plan to pay for them . You have no creditability in any argument if it isnt based in realistic outcomes. Cradle to grave dependance is FAILURE!

Here's what Jesus had to say about it:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Keith:

How dare you suggest that Christians should impose their religion on others by having the government carry out the commands of Jesus. What happened to the separation of church and state?

My belief is that the social justice concept, when used to suggest people in the name of religion should support the idea the government must redistribute money, is Demonic. The idea is that we will force people to give money to Government, so the masterminds can set up the Utopia to help the less fortunate. That is Satan's way, force people. We do have a responsibility to help the less fortunate but Christ's way was that we have agency and need to choose to follow his teachings. If God wanted us to be forced to do the "right thing" we would not be given this agency. The beauty in this plan is that we become better people by helping of our own choice, whereas being compelled to give to the Government does nothing for our spiritual growth and does not make us better people. As a side note the giving to the government to help people and fix problems has not been successful nor will it ever be. The chasing of Utopia's never ends well and always takes away liberty. (Read Ameritopa)

Bryant, "that is Satan's way, force people." By your words, legislation which forcibly removes women's access to full health and reproductive services and even some forms of birth control; and to forbid some people to marry because of their gender orientation is also "demonic." And I would agree.

There's no way that Christ would tolerate people ignoring those in need today any more than he would have 2,000 years ago. There's no way to spin that.

@Bryant Divelbiss...Demonic, utopian, etc. If you don't believe in a utopian society then you don't believe in the United Order of Enoch?

Lyle, The United Order failed in the early church. Even then people had a choice to join the church and participate not a mandate from a government. In order for that to work all involved would have to have a strong enough faith to work as hard for the community as they do for their own family. Things will have to change greatly before that can work even in the church. It would certainly be more difficult for an even more diverse group to live that way.

Bren: Christ did "tolerate" people who ignored those in need. He did not come and make everyone help those in need, he taught principles that we have Agency to follow. I do not think having the government help those in need has accomplished much. I am not saying you can’t support wasteful big government and still be Christian, but you can’t say God demands big government. I assume by "reproductive services" you mean abortion which is murder and as such we have a moral obligation to set up laws that prevent that. Marriage is between a man and a woman and Christian teachings support that.

@Randy1949 -

But what did Wisconsin native Willem Dafoe have to say about when he was playing Jesus in Martin Scorsese's 'The Last Temptation of Christ' (1988)? That's what's really important, as David Bowie had a supporting role in that film, remember?

@Bryant Divelbiss...I know that the United Order didn't survive past President Smith, but it continued in other forms to this very day. The ideology behind it is still alive and well. Some critics claim the Church sold out in order to get statehood.

As far as agency is concerned, I don't think most of the readers of this thread really understand what you are speaking of. One of the major differences in the brothers was that one promoted free agency and the other not. However, that particular belief is not or would not be widely supported by mainstream Christian ideology and dogma. My own view is that having free agency is part of being human. As cognitive beings we have the ability between alternatives and where politics is concerned, it is out of the realm of G-d's concern, it is strictly a human concern.

Bryant, you can't have "God doesn't want us to have big government" and "abortion which is murder and as such we have a moral obligation to set up laws that prevent that." To enforce what "you" consider to be appropriate behavior in the bedroom would take a very large government indeed, so by doing that you counter what you claim is "God's" claim that we shouldn't have big government. Which one shall you have? The small government "God" wants or the big government "you" want to control people's behavior? You can't have both.

And I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't expect my government to provide "utopia." I do expect my tax dollars to be there for me should I ever need a helping hand, a road to drive on, or to protect us from terrorism--domestic, foreign, militaristic and/or economic.

Bren: I know of very few abortions in the bedroom. As for Birth Control that can be left up to the individual short of the morning after pill. I am not saying God has taken a position either way on Big Government. What I am saying is Christian beliefs do not mandate supporting government welfare. It is a perversion of the gospel to take the language on helping the poor and interpret that we must have the government build a massive welfare state even if the programs are destructive.

@JRH -- I actually waded through the crowds of pamphlet waving protesters to see Last Temptation when it played at the Oriental. I can't recall what Willem Dafoe said, but I found it very moving when Jesus, as an old man, realizes the mistake he has made and returns to die on the cross. I don't remember David Bowie -- I've only seen the film twice.

@Bryant Divelbiss -- the 'morning after pill prevents ovulation, mostly, and prevents implantation as a last resort. It isn't an abortifacient.

@Bryant Divelbiss...Your bible doesn't address specifically how the poor are to be taken care of. In my Tenach it clearly states how social inequity is to be dealt with, including feeding the poor, forgiving debt and returning land to people who have lost it. Neither versions prohibits or impels the government to be other than treat all with justice.

You have to recognize that your church's tenets have strongly influenced you on the role of government and the means for distributing social welfare. I am not questioning your beliefs, but it would be important to other readers that you acknowledge that your are only reflecting the basic tenets of your church Most members of your church I know do not strictly follow the church's dogma concerning birth control. Abortion and LGBT relations are followed much more closely. The Church has clearly outlined what is the right position and behavior. Ergo, if you are a member in good standing, you have given up the right of free agency.

Bryant, you wrote ""God doesn't want us to have big government," so you did write that "God" has taken a position on Big Government.

"I know of very few abortions in the bedroom." Today's misconstruction award goes to Bryant, congratu-well done!

"As for Birth Control that can be left up to the individual short of the morning after pill. Your Big Government at work again?

I am aware that your use of the term "Christian beliefs" may differ from mine. I'll tell you that I support using my tax dollars to provide social safety nets because who knows but that I or someone I love may someday need it. Or anyone.

@Randy1949 -

Good for you - I personally would have loved to have seen 'Last Temptation' at the Oriental, as it's a great film and definitely one not to be missed.

I have to point out that Paul of Tarsus (Saul) wrote the 1st and 2nd epistles to the Thessalonians. Paul never actually met Jesus (but claimed that the resurrected Jesus appeared to him in a vision). Paul is also attributed with remarks about women that have provided justification for some faith systems to disallow women from being pastors or serving on church committees.

The Republicans are more willing to go to war? Woodrow Wilson was president during WWI, and it seems to me that FDR was in power during most of WWII, with Truman being the one who gave the OK to drop the Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think Truman was also in power during the Korean conflict as well. Kennedy and Johnson were the guys in charge when we got involved with Vietnam, weren't they?

@CowDung -

I concur in the historical facts you presented. Perhaps JVic has been exposed to too much 'revisionist' history over on the Daily Kos.

I'm guessing Jesus wouldn't be particularly pleased with anyone using his life and his teachings as a political cudgel, regardless of which side they're on.

The government is your idea pf getting the job done. The reality to any economy they have to produce to grow to create pretty much anything. The only thing government creates is debt. Clearly, Most who give to charity try to find one they can respect, One whose agenda is more narrow and not just in a General fund labled WHAT I THINK IS GOOD. People have always decided better than the Government as to what is important to them . Unfortunately, the governments idea of a CUT is generally an Increase due to the baseline they use to increase everyones budget whether they need it or not . It's not based in logic . If you think the Government is the entity that can save anything you are not living in a fantasy world. The more we turn things over to entrepreneurs the more efficient and less fraud riddled we become.

@skinnyDUDE....For someone who claims authority in economics your statement is entirely wrong. A growth economy is what we are currently following, but that is not the only model. Government doesn't create debt unless demands are greater than revenue and it is our decision to underfund the demand.

Other than the government, what institution exists that can handle the magnitude posed by social injustice and the needs of the poor. No one should profit from others misfortune. Turning over the safety net to entrepreneurs is incorrect on a number of levels and profiting from others' misfortune is just plain immoral.

@lyle
Obama has created 1//3 of the nations deficit in 3 years. You can talk Liberal programs until your blue in the face. If you d everything with a IOU the country collapses. Than all the programs and social justice are meaningless. Look at the greek model . We are sadly not that far off. The entire economy is now less than the deficit . GDP. Growth is slowing not increasing? The obama model is laughable .Go back to your Global warming club and quit wasting my time with nonsense.

@skinnyDUDE...Your obsession with national debt is something that is your problem not the actual economy. Based on your statements that under Obama has increased the debt, must be taken in context. The economy hasn't taken such a retraction since the Great Depression. Obama walked into this mess. Anyone who walked into similar conditions would have grown the debt, especially since congress refuses to fund. You're the one who's wasting your own time.

@ Lyle
Obama is a failure by any standard . But the economic cliff is approaching. It's not a illogical guess like global warming which you embrace. It is the reality. You offer excuses and I offer the reality of the situation . President Obama inherited a housing bubble created largely by government regulation of loan practices . Written by DEMS and supported by to many repubs. The bubble burst! This is the boat we are in .So we have to deal with it . Obama state of the union speech barely touched on the Nation's biggest problem .If it isnt addressed by AMERICANs it will not be addressed. We are not tiny greece, which is paralyzing Europe . If we go down we set the entire world on fire. No one can bail us out . Social remedies we cant pay for are stupid , cause in the end the pain will truly create a depression which will make what Obama failures look mild indeed. The house of cards truly falls when no one buys the debt cause they know we are going down . Just as the banks bundled up mortgages until they had no buyers. The government is playing the same shell game . In the end , we all will be losers. Obama's Trickle down Poverty has failed . And judging by the electorial map and polls by state.....this 4 year nightmare will soon be over.

@skinnyDUDE...I'm sorry, but your statements are not factually based. Greece is not the problem in Europe, it's only symptomatic of a problem with the Euro Zone and fundamental differences between Germany's aversion to inflation and France's insistence on national sovereignty.

As far as our own economy we have walked to the edge and now we are backing away. The economy is growing and hiring is increasing. Obama is not such a failure as you suggest.

@LYLE
Ultimatlely the voters will decide . The polls I have looked at show a tough road to hoe for our failed president. But if Obama wins again I know we all lose . This is not a hoax like global warming. Its the reality of dire fiscal picture . We might need JESUS to fill the baskets at that point !

THE END!

@Lyle -

So, what your saying is that keynesian economic policy is preferable to austrian economic policy, despite the fact that following austrian economic policy would have prevented the economic meltdown all together?

I strongly disagree that any President would have raised deficit spending to fix the national economic problems that we faced in 2008, and since then. After all, raising taxes and spending like a drunken sailor didn't help Hoover very much, did it?

@ Hoffa
Frankly , I couldnt have foreseen anyone spending this much money period. The spending wasnt very focused. Crabs running on treadmills, green energy no one wants and union payoffs. They you say no to the PIPELINE which is exactly the type of private investment and jobs we need. Even the unions were for it . The economics and logic of this President make little sense and have the no results and a mountain of deficit to show for it . It's kind of depressing when this President brags about a 8.3 % unemployment number that figures in 1.2 million people quit the workforce in ONE MONTH . By any standard this President is a failure at best!

@skinnyDUDE -

I wholly concur with you about Obama's reckless and massive deficit spending, as that's the point I was making to Lyle. But I also don't think that pure 'supply side' economics is the answer either, which is why I, as does Dr. Ron Paul, advocate for an austrian economic policy. Combine that with fair trade deals with the cheater nations, and you fix most of our economic problems in a relatively short period of time.

My favorite line from that movie: "If you're God, why do you need a star ship?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkT1-N0VqUc

IMHO, ST V: TFF was severely underrated by both critics and Trek fans alike, as the plot is far more consistent with Roddenberry's vision than most of the 'Next Generation' based films.

I actually had the opportunity to meet and have a conversation with Shatner when he was in Milwaukee. He really is a great guy!