No Bob. Mindless doofuses like you are a dime a dozen.

Great come back, Keith.

Care to actually support David's choice of analogy or are you just good for drunken one-liners?

@Schmitzy -

Where's Hoffa's fifty ($50)?

And that's the sound of McBride hitting the nail on the head once again - in regards to both Tatarowicz and low-life reneger Schmitzy!

I thought McBride sacked the passer and recovered the ball.

Leave those calls to the pros, please, Jay (you scab!).

You can just feel the love... @Bob "There's no appreciable way to determine whether we've got pro calibre teachers or replacement ref calibre teachers and they fight every attempt to measure performance. We're just supposed to take their word for it that they're good." Help me understand your position more...

What's confusing for you, Denise?

Denise:

It seems to me that Bob would be in favor of implementing a method of evaluating teachers. I believe that his point was that we shouldn't just be taking their word for it...

How does Keith's referral of Bob as a "mindless doofus" get around the Patch terms of use? I would argue that it is defamatory and abusive. Perhaps even inaccurate, false and/or misleading...

Well at the very least it warrants a second opinion, CD.

Denise, in your opinion am I a mindless doofus? And is it okay for Keith to post with a snoot full?

@Denise -

What you should be asking is why Schimtzy hasn't paid Hoffa his fifty ($50) yet!

No confusion... just looking for more details and less name calling (from everyone)... but I really want to understand your position because I think it's an important point. If you have really good teacher, but a kid whose got too much on their plate and can't/doesn't learn -- does that mean the teacher is bad? But then your statements also bring in the question (and a valid one) -- what do we expect out of teachers? and what do we expect from students and parents? Thoughts?

Denise:

An effective method of teacher evaluation should look at more than the failures of that single student--particularly since a typical teacher is responsible for educating many students during the school day.

I posted a link farther down on this page that talks about how properly done teacher evaluations can to translate into better student (and teacher) performance.

I'd argue that this discussion really shouldn't be about teachers and schools because the analogy is faulty in the first place. One of the reasons its faulty is precisely the fact that there isn't any way, currently, to evaluate teacher performance. Whereas, since the beginning of the season it's been possible to evaluate the performance of the replacement reps. In addition, the NFL regularly evaluates it's regular refs and compensates and "promotes" them based in large part on that evaluation. Not to mention that teachers weren't locked out and replaced wholesale with teachers who lacked proper experience as a result of Act 10.

There's really no similarity making the analogy a logical one.

@Denise -

"If you have really good teacher, but a kid whose got too much on their plate and can't/doesn't learn -- does that mean the teacher is bad?"

Yes and no - it depends. Ultimately, it depends on the student to take full advantage of the opportunities that our public education system provides them. However, there have been examples of people such as Jaime Escalante, Joe Louis Clark, and Michelle Rhee, just to name a few, who managed to reform and effectively teach the so-called 'worst of the worst' students - with problems ranging from drug abuse to teen pregnancy to parents who neglect and abuse them.

Instead of these educators being the exception to the rule, shouldn't they be the standard by which we hold all teachers to?

Many teachers, and their unions, appear to believe that a teacher's worth is premised upon the amount of education that the teacher has received. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The most effective educators are those who are able to reach and encourage learning by their students - even if that means that they have no formal education in teaching at all.

After all, the learning is done by the student. What most teachers really do is merely guide the student, evaluates the student's performance, and provides clarification/assistance when the student has a question. The exceptional teachers encourage learning by adjusting attitudes and motivating and challenging their students.

Thoughtful responses... thank YOU! ;)

I'm seeing some real change taking place in some of our most challenged schools (because I volunteered to be a tutor at a Racine School through Schools of Hope) -- everything from discipline to how committed teachers are to adapting their teaching styles. I plan to write more about this. But what other issues would you want to see addressed?

Denise:

Perhaps you can investigate why teachers are resisting efforts to put evaluations in place. Perhaps you can investigate why some school districts chose to not join/attend/participate in the Southeastern Wisconsin Teacher Evaluation Consortium last year. Perhaps you can compare the evaluation methods and effectiveness of the schools that attended the Consortium with the methods/effectiveness of the schools that didn't.

Bob, I'm a fan of trying to understand how someone got to the argument they present because I really want to know how you got there -- the thought behind the thought. Remember when you learned geometry and you had to do proofs, I appreciate people who can layout solid arguments. One of my favorite quotes is from Benjamin Franklin, who said: “If you would not be forgotten as soon as you are dead and rotten either write things worth reading, or do things worth writing.”

Experienced, good teachers are not a dime a dozen. Surely you had one in your limited education?

I think I pretty much spelled that out, Denise.

It's not the same thing and I think I pretty much made clear the reasons why it isn't. When someone's trying to use an analogy or make a comparison of two things to make a point, there has to be some sort of logical relationship between the two things or the analogy or comparison fails on its formulation.

As for evaluating teachers and rewarding them based on merit rather than educational attainment or longevity, I think the unions and the teachers have made it abundantly clear they'd rather stick with the system the have now, which is based on the latter. If that's what they want and they're going to effectively refuse to accept any evaluation system that's proposed, what's the point in even discussing such?

All we hear, repeatedly, is that if we don't pay them more we're not going to get quality education. That's the only standard they're interested in.

Bleedingheart, the best teachers i had were nuns.

In general, there are more than enough qualified applicants for open teaching positions. Until that changes, they're effectively a dime a dozen compared to the number of qualified NFL referee candidates.

@pull my string Keith Best....You're so predictable. Such a strong talking point. BTW, what are the current polls saying?

@JB I have read many times that the reason behind the success of he NFL it that it is an ideal sport on which to wager. I heard somewhere that $300 million was wagered in Vegas (that does not include all the other bets throughout the US -- maybe a Billion$) --- especially with the point spread system, which allows the Book to make money not based upon the winners, but based upon how close they get to having an equal number of bettors on both sides.

In order to support that system of betting, it is important to have what is believed to be a predictable refereeing of the game, so that the bettors don't become afraid they will fall prey to the ineptness of the officials, who do not have the necessary experience and knowledge to correctly call the game.

Now of course we also have the fans who may actually think that football has something to do with civic pride and rah rah for their team --- they are the innocents who don't understand SHOW ME THE MONEY !!

There hundreds of ways to measure teacher performance --- the problem is getting a consensus of what is expected of the teachers, and what is the expected outcome for he students.

Again, if we as a society were as concerned with the education of our kids as we are on the outcome of a game -- we would earnestly work on building that consensus, and giving clear goals and objectives to the teachers.

Presently the Teachers are akin to skilled Refs -- but with contradictory rule books.

@David
How did the consensus building go in Chicago? You continue to blame on the people. It is not the people who reject choice, but the government and teachers. It is not the people actively working to undermine the system, but the unions.

The people voted twice to elect the governor willing to reduce the power of the unions via Act 10 and yet, the public employees and the unions have it tied up in courts. The citizens of our state are trying to make schools better. Yet, they are being blocked by the teachers, unions and Democrats.

@David,

Your tin hat is on too tight regarding the betting issue. Betting was very restricted to small portions of the country for most of the NFL's history.

As for the teachers and education, we do take the issue very seriously. The suburbs would still be mostly farmland if we didn't. But we put our money where our values were, and were forced to move.

@Luke I have no idea how old you are, so maybe you are too young to know that there has always been just as much betting in the past, as there is now,

Before the government decided it was ok to bet, people used Bookies --- as a matter of fact, many people still do, as they can get credit from them.

You remind me of a friend of mine, who use to be a DC Cop. One morning his elderly mother asked him what the "number" was that day --- he explained to his mother that they didn't call it the numbers anymore, since it was all run by the state now, they call it the Lottery.

When I was working at the Sun Times Daily News as a summer job delivering papers from the plant to the agencies, one of the drivers did the Numbers, and I use to play it often --- oh yeah, same guy also had really cheap cigarettes for sale --- no tax stamps :-)

@NSN -- OK -- I agree -- many parents are the most inept of all, and way too many just don't care, or at least care more than just giving lip service.

I would also blame parents on not providing the guidance to the School Board and Teachers in what they want their kids to learn in school, and what school should be in their lives, providing not only guidance in learning the 3R's but also on the total Child -- mental, physical, emotional, motivated, etc,etc

It wouldn't necessarily involve letting the 'expensive, experienced teachers go'. If the experienced teachers are effective educators, then the school would be unwise to let them go. The ones that need to go are the ones that have lost their ambition to teach and are just biding time until retirement.

So in lieu of evaluating them based on merit, you'd rather we just draw inspiration from the NFL and assume conditions related to a job that couldn't be much further removed from teaching apply? Or are you suggesting we put the tenured teachers and newbies in zebra shirts, let them ref a few plays at homecoming and sort them out that way?

Are NFL refs evaluated on 'merit'? How do you measure merit? Calls you happen to like?

Evaluating merit in a teacher is difficult, because tests don't give an accurate idea, and peer and principal review can be subject to all kinds of influence -- personality conflicts and budgetary concerns.

You've just had an object lesson in why experience is good. You just don't want to see it.

I'd say that's what this whole thing is about, Randy. If the replacement refs were as good as the pros, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. If there was no way of evaluating their work, we wouldn't know one way or the other. Some of the replacement refs came from college ranks and have as many years in there as do the pro refs. They just aren't good enough to be pro refs. We know that because we can evaluate their performance.

It's a ridiculous analogy and the more you folks try to make it seem reasonable, the more ridiculous the arguments.

As you said in another thread, it's just a game.

And, actually, Randy, NFL refs are evaluated on merit by the league as well - on a weekly basis, just as are the players and are given higher paying positions and assignments based on, to a large extent, their performance in those evaluations.

Randy:

How is it any different than any other system for employee evaluation? Non school bosses and employees can have personality conflicts and budgetary concerns that can affect evaluations.

If done well, evaluations can improve the quality of teaching and 'can lead to 'incredible' results with their students.'

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2012/0812/Back-to-school-How-to-measure-a-good-teacher

Thanks for another "fail" randy. I'd begin to deconstruct your analogy, which is so indepty stupid that almost anyone can see its faults, but it'd be a waste of my and everyone else's time.

LOL
Randy you are just too dumb to be real.

@oak creek resident -

Randy1949 is not dumb - no need to make personal attacks here.

@ Hoffa

Randy's analogy is dumb, feel better?

Says the man(?) who can never counter an argument with a cogent rebuttal, other than to call someone 'dumb' or lacking in manhood. While i disagree with Hoffa most of the time, at least he must have kicked serious behind on the debate team.

The only reason we are hearing teacher bashing now is that some teachers have represented the occupation rather poorly when they purposely shut down the schools by calling in "sick" to protest Act 10. We didn't see other public employees refusing to pick up trash, clear snow, etc. because of Act 10--they acted like true professionals and continued to do their jobs.

@Koven -

You just said that we need to "thank a teacher for [our] academic skills," while below admitting that learning is much more dependent upon and within the realm of the individual child as opposed to the teacher, wherein you stated "now build a fire under your own kids for learning and work courteously with your children's teachers."

Looks to Hoffa that by your own admission, the teacher is merely a guide, directing and testing the student, while the student is the one who does all the learning. That's why home schooling, with most parents who do it not being professional educators, produces such fantastic results, on average.

The true thanks should go to the successful students for being willing and disciplined enough to learn despite any obstacles that they may face.

"Blame the hedge funds and their weird derivatives, the bankers who didn't use the stimulus money to create new jobs, blame two wars going on for the last 12 years."

Honestly, pointing the finger - and then you wonder why we rip on you!?!?

Why shouldn't we blame all the people who defaulted on their promises to pay back the loans that they took out? They're the ones who lied - not "the hedge funds and their weird derivatives, the bankers who didn't use the stimulus money to create new jobs, blame two wars going on for the last 12 years."

Is that how you teach our kids, from a progressive/liberal perspective? Or do you include blaming the lowlifes that reneged on their loans?

@DK Well Said

It was February when the protests were going on--are you sure that it didn't snow yet? What job conditions changed for teachers that don't also apply to trash collectors or other public employees? You think that trash collectors don't get complaints lodged against them or don't care about their working conditions?

Teachers are being bashed because they seem to think that their jobs make them 'special'--they seem to think that they are better than or more important than everyone else.

They think that their years of training entitle them to be more outraged than the other public employees (many of whom also have years of education and advanced degrees) over the changes called for by the BRB/Act 10.

@Koven -

"Frankly, for what you get...education is a bargain."

And there you go again!

Once again, the US spends more on public education than every other nation on earth with the sole exception of Switzerland. And for that money, we're only achieving mediocre results between 9th and 15th, depending upon the evaluated criteria.

That's not a bargain! We're obviously being deprived of value!

I would argue that the NFL refs are just as replaceable--they do have new officials now and then.

The problem with the replacement refs are because they tried to replace all the officials rather than having the 'new guys' gain experience by working NFL games with more experienced officials.

@ OCR Always worth while to wait to hear your words of wisdom --- how did you get so smart -- gee, you must have gone to a charter school !!

David don't you dare try to infer that anyone with a degree or some level of intelligence has a teacher solely to thank. In many cases its the opposite.

@ OCR --- don't really understand what you said --- but if you are saying you have a degree -- ok maybe --- and some level of intelligence -- the key word there is "level"

@ Greg
Actually their average pay is less than $60,000, but benefits do add up to an average over $100,000 --- source Politifac below --- and by the way, I was using what is known as sarcasm.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

We double-checked with MPS spokeswoman Roseann St. Aubin and she confirmed the figures.

We wanted to compare the $101,091 for MPS teachers to other teachers, but the latest figures compiled by the state Department of Public Instruction are for 2009-2010, two years earlier.

Those figures show for 2009-2010, MPS teachers earned, on average, $56,095 in salary plus $30,202 in benefits, for a total of $86,297.

That was lower than eight other school districts in Milwaukee County, including Greendale, Greenfield, Shorewood, Cudahy, Fox Point, South Milwaukee, Franklin and Nicolet, which was highest at just over $103,000.

@David -

Why don't you consider the benefits package as being a part of their average pay? In all fairness, shouldn't we be looking at the total compensation package?

After all, the teachers are the ones who chose (actually practically demanded), via their union, a large deferred compensation package over additional take home pay. No one forced that upon them.

Let's be fair here. After all, when you guys on the left are discussing CEO pay, you ALWAYS mention the stock options, bonuses, benefits, etc, in addition to their base salary. So why not use the same standard for teachers or any other occupation?

More double-standards from the left!

@David

Bear in mind those are averages! So the low end 1st year teacher pay of 35,000 per year must be offset by some other teacher pay of 90,000. For 2/3 a year of work!!!

Put that into perspective for once: How many other professionals, which require more intelligence and ability, have -average- pay lower than that? Quite a bit if you think about it.

@ JRH --- I was not disputing that the total package shouldn't be considered --- I even went so far as to list their total package, which I found when researching Greg's comment. I agree it is very valid to consider All compensation, and apples to apples.

Not quite sure if I am "from the Left" --- although I am surely Left of most commentators on this forum.

I definitely do not want to be confined to any one ideology --- I think there is some good and bad in all of them --- I have probably voted for as many Republicans over the years as I have voted for Democrats.

For the most part, other than the last few years when the Republicans seemed to cop an attitude, there has not been much real difference between them. And increasingly, they have less and less control over the candidates who run under their labels.

David, I have seen many posts that claim teacher compensation is low. The posts by Koven even call it a "vow of poverty". What I have yet to see is anyone stating how much is enough. More is like tomorrow, it never comes. If the teachers should be paid more how much is that? Should a grade school phy. ed. teacher make the same as a high school trigonometry teacher?

@Edward Willing....How would you know Mr. Home School?

and you represent government schools Mr Ruble, perfect analogy.

@Tony If you are saying that I do not have to support private for profit sport teams against my will --- thank you --- I will immediately no longer pay the .5% sales tax I have been paying for years to buy the Brewers their playpen, and I will not pay the sales tax in Brown county for the Packers, and I am sure the good Republicans will not impose a new funding plan for the Bucks new stadium (of course Walker will have to change his habits, as he pushed for both the public funding of the Brewers and Packers) ---

Now, where can I apply to get back the taxes I already paid for them?